About this session
Let’s address the elephant in the room — “Shift left” hasn’t had the impact on our software security as many of us expected it to have. While it does have much merit and has influenced security in an indispensable way, I argue that “shift left” should be viewed as a tactic in a larger management strategy rather than a comprehensive solution to solve application security woes. Just as software development is a very complicated process with many layers, “shift left” should not be viewed as a straightforward, linear effort. This presentation will review the success, concerns and potential of “shift left” and how we can “restart” the process by applying it a little differently.
Dinis Cruz - 00:00 Hi. Welcome to this open Security Seven session in April 2023. And we have Chen here, which is going to expand on why shift left isn’t what you expected. We already had some interesting conversations before and we’re looking forward to see where Chen is taking this from. Over to you, Jen.
Chen Gour-Arie - 00:19 All right, thank you very much for having me and thank you for the opportunity to talk about this subject here. So I’m Chen, I live in Tel Aviv. I’m a co founder and chief architect of Endosecurity. My passion is around building things, but professionally I’ve been more busy with breaking them for, I guess the beginning of my career was a pen tester for many years and then that led me to take more and more interest in the side of software engineering. I think the second half is more about engineering cyber solutions and so I can still be active on these two realms. What we are building at Tenzo is an SPM solution. We are building it to allow sustainable and scalable AppSec by working on building all the bits and pieces that are necessary to be able to list all your assets. Also in the same way, to list all your controls and get some feedback on the status that you have in each control so you can handle and focus on the critical alerts.
Chen Gour-Arie - 01:26 This is a very interesting experience to build this kind of innovative application, but it takes us into places that we need to really think about how this is done and what’s inside in application security as a realm, what’s going on inside so many frameworks, so many ways to approach the problem and think about it so naturally. Because our flow is to list an asset and then understand the controls and then measure the controls. Defense metrics approach is very relevant to adopt as a way of thinking about this. This is some of the work of one of our advisors, Sonilu, and it’s about thinking about the problem in a way that you use NIST security function and then list down the areas of technology that you have and your application. We are here in this tier and then you think of how to combine the right combination of technology, people and processes in a way that will allow you to make sure that you’re covered in each and every one of these activities, these functions of security.
Chen Gour-Arie - 02:33 This approach is very systematic and this is why we attend. So we relate to it very much. It builds on a well adapted structure of security functions, framework, and then you also drill down on each area and you think you have three tools at hand. It’s always a solution, a technology, a process that you can try to adapt throughout the organization and the people that you can operate within it when each and every one of them have the pros and cons building too much on process can create antagonism and can break down in different places. You don’t have enough people to do all of the tasks and your technology is not able to do some of the tasks. The right combination and the right visibility into your defense metrics is an approach that we attend or we really like to include in our process of thinking.
Chen Gour-Arie - 03:27 We are playing with it because in application security, the Identify, Detect, Protect convention of NIST sometimes challenging to adapt, to apply directly to everything that we do. So we’re always busy with it. We are mapping in it. We have this open project, the AbSec mapping vendors can subscribe, can submit their solutions and then we list the solutions. We give of information about each solution, let you also see what kind of vendors have and also open source tools inside. The main purpose of this is to help to assist everybody in the community in understanding this landscape of application security. You can also kind of a tiny tool to build your own map and then see what kind of things you can have for infrastructure as code security, what kind of things are out there, and also open source solutions and then kind of try to lay down the things that you’re doing to have another perspective on this.
Chen Gour-Arie - 04:32 In the process of building this database of all this knowledge, Iratenzo, we face a lot of discussion about how things should be done, why things should be done, what is the best approach, what kind of frameworks we have and what is the other differences. Also about things that are more like a trend or an approach that is even wider, like shift left. We get to this discussion a lot and what does it mean exactly and how to do it, is it DevSecOps or not, what is it like, what’s inside exactly? We are very consistent in our approach to try and map a good defense metrics. So if we go down.
Dinis Cruz - 05:18 A little.
Chen Gour-Arie - 05:18 Bit deeper into this question, we can already start to break it down also from the threat perspective, realize the full threat and then this gives us an idea on what kind of assets should be under the jurisdiction of Upsec. Here is just a simplified, top level, stride approach to all the things that make up your full application stacks, again in very high level. When you think about tampering related problems, so you need to consider your CI CD pipelines themselves, the external supply chain, the internal supply chain, and then also the instrumentation and everything that is actually operating your application. All these under the risk of tampering. You as application security function, you have to think of fortifying this threat, fortifying your assets from the threat of tampering across the stack. This is what makes it so complicated. We break it down to actual activities in the NISS security function domains.
Chen Gour-Arie - 06:18 We already have some more familiar names for those of us who are not doing stride every morning. We already see categories of tools and how they help in breaking this down. All this is something that happens every day in every company that exercises application security. All of a sudden there is this okay, we need to shift left, we need to try and shift left the same way that developers shifted left testing. So who does this? This is our generally speaking, our team. We have the leaders of the team, usually the manager and their architects. They’re about building up some protection into the environment and including the right processes for validation for testing. That is not part of what we today most teams do as part of their DevSecOps gig. Not all of them, but on the other side of the architects that are into the content, understand the application to its logic and to its business logic functions and then help build up the right protection around it and within it and the right processes to validate it.
Chen Gour-Arie - 07:32 We also have today a growing trend of DevSec ops and DevSec ops. We have instrumentation, a lot of testing tools to cover up for a lot of the identify vulnerability identification process. We get asked in all this what is shift left? Who is doing this out of this team? Is it something that someone else do? Should the developers own it? What part of it should developer own? Who is the owner in general? This is what this talk is about. We are going to talk about what is it a perspective, white perspective on what shift left is just looking different perspective of shift left not necessarily in security and what was the impact of it. I think we will drill down into the discussion on how does it look today in application security? We will wrap up with some discussion on things that maybe we should consider as first, easier and more impactful steps to shift left and to inspire a shift left movement for security inside an organization.
Chen Gour-Arie - 08:46 So what is it? If we think about the dev SecOps as the DevOps as a delivery model or framework to think about, a way to think about how the software factory works. The software factory works in phases where from the moment something is in the ideation phase up to the level that it’s been operated and been kept operated and maintained in production and then usually it feeds back into evolution of the software start add a new feature or fix a problem and go all the way back until this problem is operated. The infinity loop was already something that we all familiar with. Shift left is if you think about this loop and you spread it one long line, the left is the start, that is the side that starts from the developers from the create phase of the story. The right handmost side is the right where things are operated, things are already in production, things are already materialized into something that is part of our business, part of our dependency chain and it’s harder to move.
Chen Gour-Arie - 10:02 Here is the beginning, here is the genesis of all software. It starts from someone has an idea and then wrote some code and shift left is about moving things here because then it would be easier to control the evolution and fix problem before they get into a place where it’s a bit harder to get rid of what kind of things we can shift left. If you think about this as a broader term, not only security shift left security, but broader term, the creatives. On the leftmost side you can’t shift it more to the left because it’s already at the left testing and security testing can be in the intermediate side, it can be pushed as much as possible to the left and then the rest of the flow is alleviated from those tasks to a point. Something that is maybe not usually conceived as a shift left activity, but all the effort of describing elements of your deployment in terms of the actual artifacts, but also the topology and the way that your production environment operates and artifacts communicate with each other.
Chen Gour-Arie - 11:18 This effort has been greatly pushed to the left with infrastructure as code approaches in the last few years and had a tremendous effect. This is definitely something that can be decided, an organization can decide that they expect that part of activity that is about taking a code and preparing it for operation in production can be pushed to the left and be done by developers. What is the motivation? The motivation, as said before, everything starts from the code. Everything starts from this moment in time that someone had an idea. In an enterprise environment, this idea is different maybe than in your basement. Still it’s the same thing that you have some an idea and then you build up plan and start building it. All you need is a computer and an IDE and you can start code it. Every piece of software that we’re using started from there.
Chen Gour-Arie - 12:21 The idea of bringing more and more to this point in time is about saving time. Later things get more complicated, things get more convoluted in one another and it’s a bit more difficult to spot and fix. The actual things that you shift left, things that we touched before, is that to make testing something that developers are in charge of? Kind of by the book testing is core activity for developers. And they test with code. They write code to test their code, which always give some a paradox kind of question, like who tests the tests? This is already a standard and everybody is doing this and also packaging and building up the artifact, the containers and all the information for further integration and deployment is already also being adapted as a standard. These are the kind of things that we can shift left and when we dive in more, let’s try to look this in the eye and answer is it useful for us?
Chen Gour-Arie - 13:43 If you are looking at your end of the year performance report for your engineering organization and or even for even larger than that, even for the full company? It is I think something that many managers face is this question am I leading the right balance between investing infrastructure, making things more, investing in Velocity, making things run faster in most cases but still stopping and investing in some kind of an infrastructure? Or should I keep just building the same way I do? Is this process right? Is it slowing me down? Things that part of the decision making that is inspired by thinking that we should shift left activity to save time later, not all of it is successful in the same level. If you think about containerization or any other type of packaging I think that it speaks for itself. When we look at all these public and private repositories of artifacts and amazing array of possibilities to orchestrate them into an operating production applications, I think that we can definitely say that the approach of moving part of that job to the hands of the developers, to the beginning of the plan has been very successful.
Chen Gour-Arie - 15:14 Everybody that practices it is very happy with the results and the impact that it has on their velocity. Infrastructure has got the same way. Maybe you can even kind of think about it together. It’s maybe one thing with two faces and then another thing that we find very successful because it is not necessarily critical but it adds a lot of value and it’s not hard to accomplish. Attribution or the developers attribute facts or simply who they are for example using code owners. This is an approach that is very useful and has a lot of impact on the visibility that the organization has into artifact, into the code, into what’s happening and greatly improves the ability to lead a good response practices. Instead of response become faster and more effective and visibility in general is improved and it’s a great supporting asset for organization that is living, breathing, actual production and needs to adapt to things that happen in real time, things that are a little less successful.
Chen Gour-Arie - 16:44 I’d say maybe it’s a bit dangerous, it’s a bit risky to say because a lot of people are advocating patterns like TDD and extensive use of testing. Of course this is something that is a must have for every organization that wants to lead a healthy engineering organization and be on top of a quality control. To control the quality of their outcome, but it is a large investment with varying level of impact. I say this because not all test flows are the same. When we talk about unit tests, sometimes it makes much more sense, but sometimes to conduct a full end to end test would be very expensive in terms of investment and limited in its ability to actually grasp the full potential of what can happen throughout this end to end scenario and give false results. It’s a lot of investment and if you haven’t done it right or if your problem space is too complicated, this investment would not necessarily pay off.
Chen Gour-Arie - 18:02 I think this is why we can see in most mature organizations that already have a large function in R and D, we can see also some layers of quality assurance processes, whether automated or manual, that are the kind of mitigation control for everything that was missed by the tests. The tests are being complemented by quality assurance manual or automated. Which means that it’s a little less effective than if we compare it to another activity that was shifted to the left like containerization, where you don’t expect the people who were used to code the It infrastructure or system infrastructure and now called DevOps. They are not expected to give attention to every new image that you publish or to every new TerraForm configuration that the developer is building or to a new Argo template. Those things are built with a framework and agreement between engineering teams and can scale up very easily.
Chen Gour-Arie - 19:10 All the developer needs to do is to take responsibility for the activity of describing those elements of the code, where in tests they take full responsibility in building the code and sometimes even base their design flows with, say something like TDD on the notion of testing. The results is usually still need someone else’s attention to make sure that it’s proficient and that it’s at the point that they wanted to we move into the next type of testing, which is shift left security testing. It becomes more dangerous because when a bug slips by the test and by QA and ends up to production and meets users and come up through the channels of bug alerts, it is clear that the developer was built. It there is a gap now and this is misfunctioning. Something is misfunctioning and you should get the attention. The case of security is not the same because there is some gap between the validity of the report and the actual defect.
Chen Gour-Arie - 20:31 In many cases and many of the engines that are about producing alerts regarding security. The part of code quality is that is related to security. Those engines are usually creating noise. When this noise meet the developers, it jeopardize one of the most important things from cybersecurity perspective, and it’s your cooperative relationship and the buy ins of developers. In other terms, in more simpler terms, if you pitch a problem if you pitch a problem that is that they it’s not real and cannot be prioritized by developers or something that they really need to give attention. To, and you pitch it again and again, automatically, in large volumes, you most possibly end up losing the buy in of developers and them saying to you, I don’t care about this subject in general, which makes this approach dangerous . You could maybe get a lot of reports, so counters of things that are probably problematic with your code base or even with your running applications.
Chen Gour-Arie - 21:48 To trial them and mitigate them will be more challenging to get this to a point that the developers have agreed to fix the final backlog. And you don’t really usually affect functionality. Many times it’s only just like a synthetic gate on your way to production. When it’s too synthetic, creators, makers will bypass it, will just go around it. One hand, the effort that requires for triaging to truly triage and introduce only true problems like usually what comes from QA feed will be real problems. This button doesn’t really does what it’s supposed to do, the pop up doesn’t show up. In security the feedback will be there is a potential vulnerability reported by this tool but to say here is an exploit in many cases requires a lot of effort and there is not enough people to validate this and give you this kind of assurance, but on the other end you cannot delegate it.
Chen Gour-Arie - 23:02 Shift left is actually touching specifically this point it’s also about we don’t have enough system people, let’s try to scale up the way that we are describing our infrastructure, that’s one thing. We also have situation where we don’t have enough QA people or we don’t want to invest too much in QA. We want to bring more of the abilities of QA to the beginning, to the left. With security it’s more problematic because in many cases the developers are not fully aware of the consequences of security defects. It’s one of the places where it’s most apparent is in questions revolving calls. Just to explain calls to a person, even if this person is developing a web solution that just to explain calls usually this explanation comes in the setting of why did you enable Course with credentials to every domain that is out there? You go through an explanation of 1 hour on how course works.
Chen Gour-Arie - 24:17 Frankly, even if they are very interested, they will forget it in about a couple of weeks. Two months or a couple of months. Next time might make next time they might do it again. Because for them more crucial that their testing environment is working properly. And this slows them down. So they just enable this goal setting. In many cases we cannot shift left a triaging. There is not enough knowledge and understanding of the problem. A lot of reports, the numbers surely can easily antagonize an organization and they cannot really prioritize this. When you cannot easily prioritize something you go into lengthy discussions on priorities which takes a lot of your time and usually also don’t lead into something that is useful. So it’s a lose situation. Just keep a discussion and this could look like prove that this FCA report is exploitable. They don’t have the capacity to prove this.
Chen Gour-Arie - 25:31 But you should solve it. Because maybe even if it’s not exploitable today, it will be exploitable tomorrow. Because tomorrow one of your developers will invoke the function that is vulnerable in this package. The response from the engineer would be we are very busy with things that happen today. Let’s worry for tomorrow. Tomorrow. This is a very common discussion that we hear on the sidelines as we try to help the teams build up a good relationship and solve those problems. The bottom line is that the main thing that security teams should be after the way personally I see it is the buying in of their partners because eventually it’s very rare that security teams are actually applying fixes. They’re instructing and prescribing fixes. The people who are actually applying the fixes are the engineers and if we don’t have their buying we failed as security teams.
Chen Gour-Arie - 26:36 Yes.
Dinis Cruz - 26:38 Here one of the things is also to make sure that there’s a good feedback loop, right, so that you can really understand what you want but also you can gamify this right, so that the teams can see when they do something, they can see quickly that hey, you just made a difference. Also there’s nothing wrong with identifying which are the teams are doing really well, which are the teams that sometimes are not as good, right? And also prioritize them. So you have context in there, right?
Chen Gour-Arie - 27:09 Exactly. I think that this exactly leads me to my next slide when we talk about the things that we should be shifting left and these things are about preparing and a right step in this direction would be to think of what would be the first smallest step to bring this buy in. At the end of this buy in, when the organization is fully committed, they will shift left everything and they will want ID level integration and commit on checks on the commits and full CI CD integration they will want and they will want to build it for themselves. As application security you cannot jump to this last step of the way. You have to go through the steps. The first, easier steps is to focus more on attribution and more on having them play with the concept of instead of enforcing the security controls directly.
Chen Gour-Arie - 28:20 Start a discussion that is visible because it is done the coders way with files in repositories that describe what needs to be done and that will start describing what the organization is going to do about application security. For example. Some building blocks of this would be that you need to think about that it only happens when they get the buying, when they decide it does. Because even if you get a jurisdiction to run a bunch of tools in your CI, if the end result, the user experience of the developers is not good enough, they will drop from this lane, they will bypass it and drop from it. It has to come when they decide it is time. You need to focus on things that benefits multiple groups. I think that one thing that shows here is for example, code owners is something that has a lot of functionality across organization.
Chen Gour-Arie - 29:17 You can use it for many different things, you can use it for measuring performance, but also for setting up the right channels for dispatching messages when there is a problem and then also giving access to some artifacts if you did it right and you’re confident that you have the controls to manage it. It benefits a lot of interest groups inside an engineering organization. It’s a good example because it’s kind of simple and scalable in a way that everybody can benefit from it. As you do this, as you think about the first thing that you should have your developers do and it is not automated testing the first thing you should have developer do, you need to think about how you can take from that. Also and get two of the, I’d say, most critical things that you need, which is the data. Ability to report, ability to communicate things that are relevant both for developers and for their managers.
Chen Gour-Arie - 30:18 To reflect picture that is relevant for the workflows of the developers but also for the managers so they can later on increase the investment on things that you’re doing. Shift left can really help you if you choose the right things to shift left in the beginning. Things that we can start shifting left today. The Attribution is to push the adoption of patterns such as code owners as a security, as something that security has a stake in. Code owners is something that we need to give context exactly like I said before. Even take it, you can take it to the next level with starting to declare security facts and also maybe information about the security lifecycle of the artifact. I’ve seen teams actually been on a talk about threat model as code start building threat model concepts into code. You would get the context, the visibility and also the participation of developers as the first lighter step before we start answering some questions that usually would lead to problems when it will be about the severity of this specific bug.
Chen Gour-Arie - 31:45 You see a team of ten people discussing the severity of a specific bug when you know that the numbers in the scanners are like 10,000 times larger and those people are crucial and their time has been wasted. One of the things that you should be focusing shift left on the first step at least would be to declare your security facts to give context to the code, to where developers are active. It can happen in the natural manifest. Some manifests give you room for some code manifest gives you room to declare this information. Like if we talk about the node package manager manifest, there is a lot of room in there to declare it. Or you can create your own file or at least you should stick to some basis that are already fully adapted. Like code owners it’s very known and adapt this as your first step, first tiny step in shift left and build on top of the ability to see a wide context your future plans, where you can say okay, the first citizens in the entire inventory that are going to fully onboard in.
Chen Gour-Arie - 32:55 Testing in static code analysis testing in CI would be those ten artifacts because they said that they need more help in security in their Attribution. They said this is a critical artifact. We want class A security. When you come to them, they’re already ready for it because they kind of ask for it in the way that they attributed their information about their artifacts.
Dinis Cruz - 33:19 Just a quick one on these code owners. This is code owners for security or code owners in general, like who owns a particular bit of code.
Chen Gour-Arie - 33:26 That’s the first step. That would be the first step.
Dinis Cruz - 33:34 I don’t agree. I think we should do it. It’s almost like we are helping the engineering process, isn’t it? Because one of the things that should happen in engineering is who actually owns what, who owns what repository. For example.
Chen Gour-Arie - 33:50 We put our efforts on something that is clearly their interest. We can get a lot of this very important context that we need. This is why this is a very good option to start with because clearly serves the needs of R and D. If your organization haven’t already adapted, it helping them adapt something that is engineering. You can I think we said in the beginning that good security engineering is just simply good engineering. It’s a bit rude to just come as an outstander and send this to the engineers directly, but say, what, I need to be able to find people quicker. This code owner and I see that we’re not really using it. Maybe we can invest in a few more things that you can do when you have code owners, when you have proper code owners across the organization. And then this is an.
Chen Gour-Arie - 34:47 Investment that everybody can understand. It doesn’t bring a lot of discussion on priority and will be a very good step in your whole shift left journey.
Dinis Cruz - 34:58 Yeah, cool. Actually, just one more other thing on this one. One of the things that is interesting is we have some projects and I’ve done some really cool stuff and actually opens some assessments around it of using config files in the repos. This would be a great place to put that, right? Those owners where imagine each repo had actual mapping for the git repo right on who owns it, what teams are responsible, what who maintains it, et cetera. Directly at the code, almost at the code level that will give you that information, isn’t it?
Chen Gour-Arie - 35:33 Yeah, that’s the code owners pattern, code owners fire pattern. Like I said, we’ve seen teams that adapt it and also start to add security facts into it. They put of the stride or any threat model result into those files and then they can consolidate the information from those files. They put other security facts, they put emergency slack channel information there relation to business unit or to revenue stream. Information that is truly critical for security teams that looks at a full picture to catch those important places and be effective in giving them the right attention.
Dinis Cruz - 36:23 Yeah, absolutely.
Chen Gour-Arie - 36:28 All right, I guess is there any questions in the chat or anything else.
Dinis Cruz - 36:35 That peoplec map right, that you showed, which is awesome, right? I was looking at it’s pretty cool. How do you say is this open source? By the way, this project, the project.
Chen Gour-Arie - 36:47 Itself is not open source but we will probably release it. We want to improve code quality before but no, I’m kidding. The project itself is not open source yet, but the data inside is open so everybody can submit and everybody who submits after just basic screening just go inside and is listed.
Dinis Cruz - 37:09 Yeah, because this reminds me on that I think was Tech Radar. How you know that? From who created it? What I mean by tech radar. From ThoughtWorks, right? Because it’s actually quite cool, right? Because it allows you to visualize right. A lot of the technologies. I think this is really cool, but I think if you can open source this because for example, I feel that for this to be useful, I would need to create a fork of it so I can store the information of the particular units. In fact, I almost would like to have one of these just for my security team. Because we now have engineering capacities, but also to have this created for multiple teams. Because if an organization of a distant size, this already is going to be very hard to do this at organization level because every team is different.
Chen Gour-Arie - 38:16 The engine, you mean? Just a second. Just the engine itself that shows those tired information with the search capabilities. This is what you mean by outsourcing or the database?
Dinis Cruz - 38:29 Well, when I look at something like this, I think of like a JSON file. There should be a JSON file that contains all the data, right. Because this is not super complicated data right. That allows me to create the kind of maps that you are showing on the other side, right, that kind of visualization. We start to get a sense of what we’re using, what we’re not using, what are the things that we want to do, et cetera. About this is you can even do threat models on top of this. You can do all sorts of things like the ones you guys have, right. You want a mode where people can maintain and create their own and actually almost use this for all sorts of stuff because this is quite a nice way to visualize it. This is really cool. The key would be to how can you even customize this or save individual versions, right, so that I can share with the teams and then we can start to maintain it.
Dinis Cruz - 39:31 I kind of view it as you want it in the case where the raw data should all be stored, for example, on the GitHub repo. So you can even version control that.
Chen Gour-Arie - 39:40 Yeah. I’d love to have a follow up session with you to discuss what can we do with it, how can we align it to this idea, which I really like. In technical terms, it’s a react front end. The back end of the data is pulled from this submission tool, send it to a Monday form and we aggregate the data and we just qualify just because sometimes people submit one line per each category and then we just qualify it and then we publish it to S three. The stack is very lean and very like you can see very quick. We can definitely think of a way to think about it. Open Source Sound of Disabilities yeah, I.
Dinis Cruz - 40:29 Think it’s cool because it also shows visually where you are. A lot of this is what I like about it is to show the maturity of the different systems and where you are within an organization or where we are within a team. Even the shifting left, once you got this data, you can start to visualize it, right? How far are you doing it, how far is actually working, et cetera.
Dinis Cruz - 41:52 Yeah, that’s why I think you want to now foster the community, right? Because only I think that the conversations that you can have from this, that it only makes sense once it’s easy and scalable. Until, for example, I would be able to run this in an environment that I can create even a private version of this. It doesn’t make sense to me to involve the rest of the security team or even the developers, because that’s the first question they’re going to ask, where is the data going to be stored? How can we visualize this, et cetera. This can be expanded pretty nicely to even other domains, right? It’d be really cool to start to have, for example, risk maturity levels and other maturity levels that you can kind of map in the same way and then even apply color coding in terms of risks, in terms of things that you want to do.
Dinis Cruz - 42:40 Because one of the things you touched that I really like is the idea of core components and also the idea of when we talk about shifting and accelerating in the world I live in, is that the balance is almost like how do you strike a balance between the speed that the business wants to operate and the freedom that part of the business wants to have and the security controls and the guardrails that you can put around it? So to empower them. Also, how can you align that with things that you don’t want them to reinvent the will? The more core components you can have, the more effective those security things that we want to push onto the teams become. The other thing that would be really cool is to zoom into this, right? You can actually, even on these areas, almost like, let’s say you double click on it, right, and you could see the zoom in of that particular area.
Dinis Cruz - 43:39 Now, in terms of this is to add right, what I’m saying, what you actually see in there, right? Do you mean so basically imagine a world where, okay, so you got avatar, but how well are you using it and what you’re using it for? Or some of the IAS, let’s say, starting about the coverage, right? Because it would be cool to also color code this based on adoption, right, based on all sorts of metrics that you can have on this. It’s not just the fact that you have it sometimes it’s easy to buy a tool, but it’s actually being used. Right. Do you actually have a tool being effectively adding results, picking up stuff? Right. It’d be cool to also measure the health of this into here.
Dinis Cruz - 45:08 In a world where you then can say, okay, you can create anonymized version of that, and then that’s the data that people could submit to.
Chen Gour-Arie - 45:17 I think you should give me a call and we should have more discussion about this and some ideas.
Dinis Cruz - 45:24 Yeah, absolutely. Cool, right? I don’t think there’s any questions here, so I think we’re good, man. No, really cool session, man. We’ll talk to someone and thanks for doing this.
Chen Gour-Arie - 45:35 My pleasure. Thank you for having me.